Chatting with Authors: Daniel Joshua Rubin
Daniel Joshua Rubin
I spent two illuminating hours with Daniel Joshua Rubin on a random Monday talking about everything writing – classic structure, the business of writing, experiencing the resistance and so much more. It was a blast!
I was very interested in his book -- 27 Essential Principles of a Story and his online course, The Blackbelt Writing Academy, which he launched based on the writing principles from his book. It offers an elite, MFA-level education in storytelling that rivals the world's elite universities for a fraction of the price. It truly covers it all!
While this is a long(ish) interview, I believe it to be completely worth your time is if you are interested in the creative process of writing, and even if you’re not!
And if you are in a hurry and want the highlights, here they are. (But come back and read the article when you have more time)!
Three Takeaways for Writing Success
1. Get clarity (yet another vote for why journaling matters!)
I started a journal to define, as simply as possible, the first principles of storytelling. And after working on that for a few months I thought it was valuable. On a whim I sent it to an agent who signed me and sold the book. I’m convinced if I thought I was writing a best seller it would have gone nowhere.
2. Outline, but stay flexible
I enjoy creating outlines and do a lot of heavy lifting in the blueprint. But I like to leave options. For example, you know two characters are going to have a vicious fight and you know why but you don’t know how it will end. I like to outline but not too hard. It’s a give and take.
3. Get into the flow state.
Mihaly Csikszentmihalyi wrote the famous book Flow, The Psychology of Optimal Experience. And he found that to get into a flow state you need to know what you’re trying to achieve. And it needs to be just the right degree of difficulty. Too easy and it’s boring. Too hard and so frustrating you quit.
Daniel Joshua Rubin: Chatting with Authors
How did you get into writing?
It started early. As a kid I was real into Aesop’s Fables. In 3rd grade I read one about a wolf bullying a lamb. The wolf insists the lamb insulted him but everything the wolf says is a lie the lamb can easily prove. Still the wolf eats him. And the moral is “any excuse will serve a tyrant.” After reading that I saw kid getting bullied in school and it was just like that fable. Somehow the truth of the story helped the world make sense. After that I wrote The Fables of Daniel. There was a cheapskate frog and a rabbit cheating at poker. My teacher gave me an A+ with lots of exclamation points and that positive feedback was the spark. That and I stunk at math and science.
Tell me about your book, how it came to be, how you came up with the principles?
I studied writing in college, got an MFA in playwriting and after a long career as a journeyman writer in TV, theater and new media I was burned out. So I quit writing and took a day job running the marketing for an agricultural risk management company.
Then one day I was walking to work on a freezing cold Chicago morning. And it hit me that I was no longer a writer. And no one cared. My friends and family still loved me. My agent, manager, and all the producers and publishers on Earth were getting on just fine without me. That was a humbling and painful moment. But then I felt this surge of inspiration. I was free to write anything I wanted with no pressure, no expectations, no need to validate my existence. I feel like I was born again as a writer when I quit being a Writer!
After that, I was watching a mixed martial arts fighter talk about how committed he is to mastering the fundamentals. And I was shooting a testimonial video, one of our most successful clients own a dairy with like 50,000 cows. And he said the exact same thing – that he simply committed to the fundamentals of profit margin management. If X happens, you do Y. Slow and steady wins the race. Both became successful by getting the basics right.
So I started a journal to define, as simply as possible, the first principles of storytelling. And after working on that for a few months I thought it was really valuable. On a whim I sent it to an agent who signed me and sold the book. I’m convinced if I thought I was writing a best seller it would have gone nowhere.
When it comes to writing, which principle do you feel most people want to learn?
Ask dramatic questions. A dramatic question is simply “What will happen?” Will the cop catch the killer? Will the doctor save the patient? This principle really helps shape a story so people most want to learn that one most.
And which one do you think most people NEED to learn?
Without a doubt it’s Write characters to the top of their intelligence. At its heart writing is thinking, it’s creative problem solving, decision making at high speed. And thinking is hard work as the writer and as your characters. This one also offers the most bang for the buck. When your hero has to think to the highest level of their intelligence it means the stakes are high and the antagonist is doing their job to pressure the hero. If you look at great characters from Hamlet to Eric Cartman to Ladybird they do the hard work of thinking.
What is your own creative process for writing … For example, do you outline, or are you more stream of consciousness?
I enjoy creating outlines and do a lot of heavy lifting in the blue print. But I think this is also due some insecurity and lack of trust in just letting go. It takes confidence and skill to structure as you write. I like to know where I’m going and why. But I like to leave options. For example, you know two characters are going to have a vicious fight and you know why but you don’t know how it will end. I like to outline but not too hard. It’s a give and take.
We all get close to our work, yet have to edit for length, grammar, etc. What are some techniques you use?
I find editing my own work painful. So I built a system. I take a week off from a major draft and then try hard to emotionally detach as I read it. As if it wasn’t written by me. If it entertains and engages it works. If not, I rewrite. But the key is to be comfortable in discomfort, to be okay when I don’t know what to do. The ultimate technique for writing is to be curious about what it really is you’re bringing to life as opposed to freaked out about not being rich and famous by the time you’re 20.
Your online course, Blackbelt Writing Academy, looks great. Who is your course for? Who is it not for?
It’s for people who care deeply about their story and are willing to put the work in. If someone wants to make a big score writing about a cop who partners with a schnauzer I’m not the guy. If someone wants to explore the truth of who they are and what’s really happened to them or has a deep-seated passion for their genre or story idea I’m all in.
I love the martial arts concept of the Blackbelt Writing Academy, complete with “belt” ceremonies at the end of each section. How did that come to be?
I joined a dojo in Los Angeles when I was living there to study karate and I loved everything about it. The camaraderie, the commitment to drilling fundamentals, the progression from white belt to black belt. The belt colors give you time to simply be, to just focus on a few core skills and build yourself up over time. And though everyone is learning the same moves no two martial artists execute them in the same way. You get the benefit of mastering fundamentals but in a way that doesn’t stifle your individuality. While writing is not a life or death experience it often feels like it. You’re not getting punched in the face but if you have had critics tear you to shreds in public or sat through opening night while something deeply personal is up on stage, you might actually prefer a shot in the kisser. So the Blackbelt Writer concept felt right.
You mention that one of the goals you’ve built into the course is to help people get into the flow state. Can you tell me a little about that?
I’m really glad you asked that because flow states are essential to great writing. We all know those moments when hours seem to pass by in minutes. Mihaly Csikszentmihalyi wrote the famous book Flow, The Psychology of Optimal Experience. And he found that to get into a flow state you need to know what you’re trying to achieve. And it needs to be just the right degree of difficulty. Too easy and it’s boring. Too hard and so frustrating you quit.
As a writer you always have a problem to solve – what to write, when to write, where to locate a scene, how to build a character, structure dialogue, etc. My goal was to make it as simple as possible for writers to wrestle with problems.
Let’s say you’re working on the principle Earn transformations. This simply means when a character changes it’s believable. If you know what you’re trying to achieve, a specific change, and do the work to think through the stages of that change it’s easy to get lost in the act of problem solving. For example, how does a character go from doubting the existence of God to being truly faithful? This is how you enter flow states. You define a problem then set about solving it, confidence that you can.
Since my entire course is set up to help you become a Blackbelt Writer by solving problems you believe you can solve and enjoy working on you can access these states every time you write. That’s a really empowering, enjoyable feeling. If you could just push a button and voia! – a masterpiece appears, that would actually suck.
This information is all so great! How can people follow you for more on social and learn more about your online course?
As of this writing my marketing and social media is abysmal. But I’m working hard on it! I’m usually found @DanJoshuaRubin or @DanielJoshuaRubin on Substack, Linked In, Instagram, X and beyond. I plan on radically improving these profiles by posting great story-related content.
But by far the most valuable thing people can do is go to BlackbeltWriter.Com and take the course. I feel it offers a massive return on invested time. It is an MFA-level course that is built to rival the greatest writing programs in the world. And you can try it risk free.
Linkedin: Daniel Joshua Rubin
Book: 27 Essentials of Story: Master the Secrets of Great Storytelling, from Shakespeare to South Park
Course: Blackbelt Writer
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I’m Liese Gardner.
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